Comments on: Indian outsourcing is killing IT http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/ Because programming is depressing Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:29:15 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Joe http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-870 Joe Mon, 25 May 2009 18:14:00 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-870 You are hopelessly off the mark (just kidding). But not for the reason that everyone is saying. Don't you know that ridiculious questions from an Indian programmer show that he is "curious, always seeking a better way to do things, never satified with a solution even if the problem s solved". Whatever numbnuts IT manager came up with THAT hum-dinger as the NEW description of the kind of programmer we want today is, indeed, one short-sighted sack of shit. On the otherhand, if an American programmer were to ask a question like that about struts, that would be used as proof as to why we need to hire Indian progmmers, who are so much more enlightened than we Americans. And don't say its because Indians are cheaper. That's bull. American programmers could lower their rates to beneath the cheapest Indian and they STILL wouldn't get hired. The reason 95% of IT managers today want Indian programmers is because when the manager makes various bone-head plays throughtout the project's life, he knows that chances are the American Programmer might have an opinion, or at least be a witness to it with his own opinions. Whereas the Indian programmer is too meek and mild (or just doesn't understand English enough) to express his 2 cents worth. One final observation: would you agree that Indian programmers are acting "in unison" so to speak in terms of flooding the IT market? So what makes these bright boy managers think that they all won't ask for raises "in unison" virtually tugging on the IT industrie's short-hairs. Or do these genious IT managers think that Indians will work for peanuts indefinitely? So go ahead, block out Americans and hire Indians. WHEN the time come that you need Americans back. (AND THE TIME WILL COME). Don't be surprised if American programmers decide they only want to work for Indian project managers, and they leave you American IT project managers to twist in the wind - as you are doing to us now. You are hopelessly off the mark (just kidding). But not for the reason that everyone is saying. Don’t you know that ridiculious questions from an Indian programmer show that he is “curious, always seeking a better way to do things, never satified with a solution even if the problem s solved”. Whatever numbnuts IT manager came up with THAT hum-dinger as the NEW description of the kind of programmer we want today is, indeed, one short-sighted sack of shit. On the otherhand, if an American programmer were to ask a question like that about struts, that would be used as proof as to why we need to hire Indian progmmers, who are so much more enlightened than we Americans. And don’t say its because Indians are cheaper. That’s bull. American programmers could lower their rates to beneath the cheapest Indian and they STILL wouldn’t get hired. The reason 95% of IT managers today want Indian programmers is because when the manager makes various bone-head plays throughtout the project’s life, he knows that chances are the American Programmer might have an opinion, or at least be a witness to it with his own opinions. Whereas the Indian programmer is too meek and mild (or just doesn’t understand English enough) to express his 2 cents worth. One final observation: would you agree that Indian programmers are acting “in unison” so to speak in terms of flooding the IT market? So what makes these bright boy managers think that they all won’t ask for raises “in unison” virtually tugging on the IT industrie’s short-hairs. Or do these genious IT managers think that Indians will work for peanuts indefinitely? So go ahead, block out Americans and hire Indians. WHEN the time come that you need Americans back. (AND THE TIME WILL COME). Don’t be surprised if American programmers decide they only want to work for Indian project managers, and they leave you American IT project managers to twist in the wind – as you are doing to us now.

]]> By: joshua_davis http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-778 joshua_davis Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:49:18 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-778 I'll echo what others have said: This is a very narrow view of the world. Talented programmers are very rare, that means most are not-so-talented. These mediocre folks are *everywhere*. There are executives that view programmers as a commodity everywhere, and why should they pay top dollar for bad programmers? Is it better to have bad programmers half way across the planet or sitting in the next room where you can keep an eye on them? Every company will answer these questions differently. I’ll echo what others have said:

This is a very narrow view of the world. Talented programmers are very rare, that means most are not-so-talented. These mediocre folks are *everywhere*. There are executives that view programmers as a commodity everywhere, and why should they pay top dollar for bad programmers? Is it better to have bad programmers half way across the planet or sitting in the next room where you can keep an eye on them? Every company will answer these questions differently.

]]> By: Great Indian http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-774 Great Indian Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:58:05 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-774 Dear Team, I am very upset and sorry to know all of your feelings. I am a proud Indian programmer. I had seen all types of short sited / narrow minded programmers from all countries. You may get a chance to touch base with few junk programmers. Don’t assume that all are junk. We have very good foundation in programming. We had studied computer Science for 6 years in college. I get paid 100$/Hour in New York City. My code is pretty good and everybody is happy with it. Passed all Unit Testing, Integration Testing and follows all standards. You never get a chance to see my code, because of copy right / proprietary issues. Those who had seen, they appreciated it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "95% of the Indian H1B programmers are not involved in any of the complex programming tasks whether it is Compilers, Debbuggers, Assemblers" I am an application programmer. So need not to write any compilers, assemblers...etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "two-man operation run out of a basement on a Pentium II." All great companies did the same. They didn’t rented 1000 room offices on day 1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "the quality of code coming back is a total joke" You are responsible in choosing right team and set correct expectations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "we are the Engineers but are not "copy-past" coders having dozens Certificates." Please shut down your internet access and think of doing coding for 8 hours. When there is no training, no manuals, no examples, what people will do? All Certificates are issued by whom? For what? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Practically nothing was tested. A bug would get run into within minutes" Didn’t checked test reports, before running code? "Practically nothing was documented." Did you paid for it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can’t comment all the statements....Ask yourself twice before you post.... You are real narrow minded people and looking at India from your own glasses....that is your problem. Sorry for that. You will get what you paid. Thank you. Dear Team,

I am very upset and sorry to know all of your feelings. I am a proud Indian programmer. I had seen all types of short sited / narrow minded programmers from all countries. You may get a chance to touch base with few junk programmers. Don’t assume that all are junk.

We have very good foundation in programming. We had studied computer Science for 6 years in college. I get paid 100$/Hour in New York City. My code is pretty good and everybody is happy with it. Passed all Unit Testing, Integration Testing and follows all standards. You never get a chance to see my code, because of copy right / proprietary issues. Those who had seen, they appreciated it.

—————————————————————————————————-
“95% of the Indian H1B programmers are not involved in any of the complex programming tasks whether it is Compilers, Debbuggers, Assemblers”
I am an application programmer. So need not to write any compilers, assemblers…etc.
—————————————————————————————————-

“two-man operation run out of a basement on a Pentium II.”
All great companies did the same. They didn’t rented 1000 room offices on day 1.
—————————————————————————————————-

“the quality of code coming back is a total joke”
You are responsible in choosing right team and set correct expectations.
—————————————————————————————————-
“we are the Engineers but are not “copy-past” coders having dozens Certificates.”
Please shut down your internet access and think of doing coding for 8 hours. When there is no training, no manuals, no examples, what people will do?
All Certificates are issued by whom? For what?
—————————————————————————————————-
“Practically nothing was tested. A bug would get run into within minutes”
Didn’t checked test reports, before running code?
“Practically nothing was documented.”
Did you paid for it?
—————————————————————————————————-

I can’t comment all the statements….Ask yourself twice before you post….
You are real narrow minded people and looking at India from your own glasses….that is your problem.
Sorry for that.

You will get what you paid.

Thank you.

]]> By: Gman http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-705 Gman Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:54:35 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-705 I have some experience with our company outsourcing a php application to an Indian company and would like to say that I was not involved in any of the financing aspects, hiring, or anything. I was simply the in-house php developer needing to use a system built by the India team. A few points from my experience: * Practically nothing was tested. A bug would get run into within minutes of trying to use their program; a week would go by, they would fix the issue, we would test it, and would hit another wall within minutes. This process went on for months with no end in site. I can pretty much guarantee they did not do testing of any kind. * Practically nothing was documented. The code they wrote was, (I believe) intentionally obfuscated in such a way that if you wanted to add more features, change existing ones, you had to have them work on it as any other developer would look at it and would suggest a complete re-write. * Practically no communication between workers and managers. I had a few points of contact with the Indian team, and it seems that they would not even stay updated internally regarding the project. Meetings and deadlines being missed become the rule as apposed to being the exception. I have some experience with our company outsourcing a php application to an Indian company and would like to say that I was not involved in any of the financing aspects, hiring, or anything. I was simply the in-house php developer needing to use a system built by the India team. A few points from my experience:

* Practically nothing was tested. A bug would get run into within minutes of trying to use their program; a week would go by, they would fix the issue, we would test it, and would hit another wall within minutes. This process went on for months with no end in site. I can pretty much guarantee they did not do testing of any kind.

* Practically nothing was documented. The code they wrote was, (I believe) intentionally obfuscated in such a way that if you wanted to add more features, change existing ones, you had to have them work on it as any other developer would look at it and would suggest a complete re-write.

* Practically no communication between workers and managers. I had a few points of contact with the Indian team, and it seems that they would not even stay updated internally regarding the project. Meetings and deadlines being missed become the rule as apposed to being the exception.

]]> By: B First http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-687 B First Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:24:40 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-687 The off shoring trend of blue chip companies that continue to outsource to India or have major operations there - such as HSBC, Google and Microsoft - would seem to contradict your assertions. The off shoring trend of blue chip companies that continue to outsource to India or have major operations there – such as HSBC, Google and Microsoft – would seem to contradict your assertions.

]]> By: 386 http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-666 386 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:52:18 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-666 Great post! This is exactly what differentiates a third world country like India from the rest of the developed world. The offtopic posts above enforce my beliefs. The average India programmer is looking for a "position tag" after his name. (s)He is happy to be a Manager at some sweatshop instead of focusing on coding quality code. Poor quality of English and basic communication skills is another problem. Although the general population is happy that they're an English speaking society, quality communication is much to be desired. We are a culture that primarily communicates in local languages. English and coding languages are not the common. India people involved in IT are there for a reason. They're a cog in the machine. These "professionals" are recruited en masses and "dumped" into the workspot at the blink of an eye. Money and not code is what matters to most of these Indian devs. Yes, I am Indian. :) Great post!

This is exactly what differentiates a third world country like India from the rest of the developed world.

The offtopic posts above enforce my beliefs. The average India programmer is looking for a “position tag” after his name. (s)He is happy to be a Manager at some sweatshop instead of focusing on coding quality code.

Poor quality of English and basic communication skills is another problem. Although the general population is happy that they’re an English speaking society, quality communication is much to be desired.

We are a culture that primarily communicates in local languages. English and coding languages are not the common.

India people involved in IT are there for a reason. They’re a cog in the machine. These “professionals” are recruited en masses and “dumped” into the workspot at the blink of an eye.

Money and not code is what matters to most of these Indian devs.

Yes, I am Indian. :)

]]> By: virus http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-583 virus Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:59:30 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-583 dude ! u typify your clan, incompetent whiners who have no clue what the Indian IT industry is like. Giving examples of IT newbies (in whatsoever companies, and yes, every company has them) to generalise a scenario. My advice, stop bitching & try finding a job in Bangalore if you got the b*ll*cks. I bet the local tea-stall owner has got more skills than you do. You're a disgrace to India if you really are an Indian ! dude !
u typify your clan, incompetent whiners who have no clue what the Indian IT industry is like.
Giving examples of IT newbies (in whatsoever companies, and yes, every company has them) to generalise a scenario.
My advice, stop bitching & try finding a job in Bangalore if you got the b*ll*cks.
I bet the local tea-stall owner has got more skills than you do.
You’re a disgrace to India if you really are an Indian !

]]> By: Anna Skawińska http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-518 Anna Skawińska Sat, 19 Apr 2008 13:26:54 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-518 It's "thin*g*", not "thin*k*" in "The first think you notice...", Mr "talk (...) without too many awkward moments" It’s “thin*g*”, not “thin*k*” in “The first think you notice…”, Mr “talk (…) without too many awkward moments”

]]> By: James Selvakumar http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-457 James Selvakumar Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:06:26 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-457 This is a bullshit blog with some uncharacteristic statements made on indian developers as a whole. I have seen many basic questions asked by some North Americans as well in many forums and mailing lists. But I will never mock at them. I will feel happy if I can solve their problem with whatever I know, not like you, who laugh at others problems. And if you are asked to face a smart indian developer face to face to test your knowledge, I'm very confident that you will lose. This post reflects that you are ignorant and crappy and you have shallow knowledge in whatever you know. Try to improve yourself before pointing others. This is a bullshit blog with some uncharacteristic statements made on indian developers as a whole.
I have seen many basic questions asked by some North Americans as well in many forums and mailing lists. But I will never mock at them. I will feel happy if I can solve their problem with whatever I know, not like you, who laugh at others problems.

And if you are asked to face a smart indian developer face to face to test your knowledge, I’m very confident that you will lose.

This post reflects that you are ignorant and crappy and you have shallow knowledge in whatever you know.
Try to improve yourself before pointing others.

]]> By: sidharth http://depressedprogrammer.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/outsourcing-is-killing-it/#comment-456 sidharth Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:55:08 +0000 http://arsenalist.com/2007/08/14/the-indians-are-killing-it/#comment-456 you know what ur a FUCKIN LOSER arsenalist or some shit.... quality of life is directly proportional to the quality of work i think only a retard argues this...so get this straight man ....n i wont chew words here ...am an iindian tryin to do some inspiring and original work veryday n theres no doubt ppl verywhere hope n dream to do that......bt u know wat ...when at the end of the day u see some assholes like you lead an easier life like you where u have the luxury to make such gross generalisations ..i think that speaks of your own technical abilities u know wat am sayin u cant deny that ur a damn loser...u just want to kill ....n i dont fuckin care who u are or what ur color is ..i jus want to help you perish u asshole fuckin butthead ..catch me online n mail me ... well am fuckin proud to be an Indian... you know what ur a FUCKIN LOSER arsenalist or some shit….
quality of life is directly proportional to the quality of work i think only a retard argues this…so get this straight man ….n i wont chew words here …am an iindian tryin to do some inspiring and original work veryday n theres no doubt ppl verywhere hope n dream to do that……bt u know wat …when at the end of the day u see some assholes like you lead an easier life like you where u have the luxury to make such gross generalisations ..i think that speaks of your own technical abilities u know wat am sayin u cant deny that ur a damn loser…u just want to kill ….n i dont fuckin care who u are or what ur color is ..i jus want to help you perish u asshole fuckin butthead ..catch me online n mail me …
well am fuckin proud to be an Indian…

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